Abundance Protocol - THEOS.io

These are the notes I took while reading, which led me to the reflection above.

(For background context, lot of my perspective is shaped by Taleb’s thoughts from Antifragile – with that said, I don’t believe his arguments are infallible either).

A lot of these notes are simply just identifying + questioning what I considered important assumptions in the argument.

Depending on the scope that Theos takes, some of the items may not end up being that relevant.

But I feel the discussions around some of the proposed core objectives/features are important.

Motivation

#1.

Looking for alternatives, we recognise that an improved economy must begin to respect ecological boundaries and social wellbeing, and shift from prioritising self-interest towards encouraging prosocial relationships.

Must the economy shift from prioritizing self-interest towards encouraging prosocial relationships? What if self-interest works, but with different conditions? What if if we should shift towards a type of relationships different from prosocial?

#2.

Widespread transition to a new paradigm now involves people opting in to a digital social-economic network when they are ready,

I think this is envisioned and described in a positive way, but something about the phrase “widespread transition” makes me feel a bit uncomfortable.

#3.

The need for elected human representatives and centralised institutions is replaced with consent-based protocols which define how we conduct our relationships with one another and our environment.

From the perspective of the Lindy Effect, the longer something non-perishable (e.g. technology, ideas) has been in existence, the longer we can expect it to remain in existence.

Human/animal representatives/leaders, “elected” one way or another, have been around for a very long time.

Instead of trying to replace that long-surviving system with something new (and un-battle-tested), could we work backwards to a proven system that’s even older/more fundamental?

Basically, what would this statement look like if we phrased this in via negative terms?

Like:

The need for elected human representatives and centralised institutions is removed, leaving us with consent-based protocols which define how we conduct our relationships with one another and our environment.

^Is there any historical precedent for this?

Proposition

#4.

The core economic rules are like the DNA for a large component of our collective social and economic behaviour. A minor, well-crafted change in this DNA would yield immense transformation of the emergent social behaviour and impact of our species - reshaping our social relations, our economic output, and our collective impact on the planet.

This is a critical assumption of the argument. Supporting evidence, links to historical examples/precedents of this type of change and transformation taking place could be helpful here.

#5.

Therefore, we devise an holistic,

Is this a typo? A or an? Not sure, just wanted to briefly note it!

#6.

Its core rules are designed to emergently fulfil the following objectives

What does “emergently” mean in this context?

#7.

Facilitate prosocial coordination, favouring co-creation and collaboration over competition

a. Prosocial coordination and a preference for co-creation over competition is something we (Hackalong group and related communities) tend to value.

However, it may not be a uniform value.

I see the importance of it in terms of boundary coniditons, but respecting (and potentially promoting) diversity of values is important to keep in mind.

b. With prosocial coordination as an objective, it’s an assumption that co-creation and collaboration over competition will be lead to better results (in terms of resource sustainability, personal wellbeing, etc.) than competition

I would be interested in seeing examples from history/nature/civilization that support and refute this core objective

(A biomimicrical design of this core rule/objective could be compelling. You may end up seeing a balance or a blend of collaboration and competition, self-interest and prosocial)

#8.

Fulfil psycho-physiological needs, ensuring wellbeing for all humans

From the text later in the piece, I recognize this isn’t necessarily fulfilment or wellbeing at all times (e.g. things get harder when the reserves are running low)

Just wanted to mention the assumption that wellbeing as an objective will lead to better results.

Personally, I would find it difficult to argue with

-Fulfil psycho-physiological needs, ensuring basic needs are met for all humans

As an objective.

However, I’m not sure if you can ensure wellbeing for all humans – or even if you’d want to.

Simply put, sometimes stressors – the momentary deprivation of wellbeing, so to speak – increase our wellbeing in the long run.

This gets into our respective definitions/understandings of “basic needs” and “wellbeing” (which could very well be aligned) – and it could be worth exploring for this objective.

#9.

To realise such a design without falling into the trap of reinventing the prevailing macroeconomic system, we must begin from a new set of fundamental assumptions. To this end we adopt a tabula rasa approach, where we start by revising our assumptions about our relationship with the world.

a. Again, according to the Lindy Effect, the expected longevity of new fundamental assumptions is significantly less than the expected longevity of existing fundamental assumptions.

In stead of starting anew, can we work backward via negativa to a long-existing (and perhaps forgotten) set of fundamental assumptions that is aligned with:

-fulfilment of our physco-physiological needs
-regenerating the planetary ecology
-respecting boundary conditions
-(if validated as a core objective) facilitating prosocial coordination?

b. Is there a justification for adopting a tabula rasa approach?

And in particular, are there any notable objections to a tabula rasa approach that would be worthy of discussion/consideration?

Needs-Driven Economy

#10.

Since our needs drive what we consume, the economic food web begins with gathering them. Each person uploads their needs via a gateway application, specifying the type and location of each need. The geo-localised needs are then broadcast as requests to the entire economic network.

Are individuals the best judge of their own needs?

Some perhaps, but all individuals?

Furthermore, is it possible that we’re better at judging our needs in certain categories – say, shelter – and less effective at judging our needs in other categories – say, hedonistic pleasures?

These questions are relevant, given the diversity of values and personality types (disciplined, addictive, etc.) that could be signaling their needs in this network.

Continuing …

Once uploaded, individuals’ needs are aggregated into shared needs, and the different types of needs are then ranked by their frequency and intensity relative to one another, yielding a global measure of the relative importance of our shared planetary needs.

Also, from an informational perspective, do people (we) really know our needs best?

If we were in the 1950s, people could believe they needed cigarettes as medicine, given the prevailing information and beliefs at that time.

Or, as Taleb describes in Antifragile, when it was widespread mistakenly believed that transfats were healthy.

Or the 1960s-era food pyramid in the USA

Basically, in the space of nutrition/medicine at least, there could be many mistaken beliefs held by individuals about what they need, leading to a false measure/indicator of our shared planetary nutritional/medicinal needs.

Tldr; The notion that “we (as individuals) know what our needs are” is a critical assumption.

Prosocial Incentives

#11.

Although profit can be earned by improving value to consumers, over time, profit-maximising strategies tend to serve the self-interest of suppliers - ultimately converging on behaviours which are detrimental to people and the planet.

This could be an important assumption. Does profit-maximizing necessarily converge on detrimental behaviors?

As one example, what if producers had to pay for the environmental resources they used and the negative externalities they created?

Then, wouldn’t maximizing sustainability (likely a positive outcome) be part of a profit-maximiation strategy?

#12.

Following these rewards, producers emergently orient their behaviour towards the fulfillment of the community’s needs.

It’s a critical assumption that producers will respond in this way.

Through this network, you could also give producers/resource-holders a crystal clear signal for need – which implies even more necessity than market demand.

So if producers don’t orient their behavior towards the fulfilment of the communty’s needs, it could be dangerous – as it could give producers/resource-holders tremendous leverage of those who have already communicated/signaled that they are in need.

Resource Ecology

#13.

Resources are linked together in recipes which relate all resources to their constituent components in specified physical units. For example [1 loaf] bread = [320g] flour + [375mL] water + [2g] yeast. Every time a recipe is requested, orders for its component resources are requested too.

Consequently, the resource ecology harmonises the efficiencies of globalisation and the resilience of localisation.

With efficiency, you could sacrifice individuality and uniqueness.

E.g. If you include energy/cooking time as one of the specified physical units (e.g. the approx amount of Joules required to cook a loaf of bread), then it means every loaf of bread in a given geo-location would be identical in composition.

Is that level of efficiency (and thereby, uniformity) necessary condition to meet planetary boundary conditions?

Is that a desired condition?

Resource-Based Economy

#14.

Want to refer back to a piece of text from Prosocial Incentives:

By replacing profit with a prosocial reward, we remove perverse incentives which reward antisocial individual gain, rebalance the power relationship between people and producers, and realign one’s individual incentive with a measure of common good. This simply could not be achieved with the competitive price system and profit motive of the prevailing economy.

a. One thought: a reference to “resource-based pricing” could be helpful earlier on (e.g. in the prosocial incentives section), as that may be more intuitive than “prosocial rewards”

b. Isn’t the resource-based pricing still a competitive price system?

(Assuming you have some diversity of a given product in the economy – and therefore competition between different versions of the same product – which seems like a reasonable + realistic characteristic, right?)

With a diversity of products, I don’t believe resource-based pricing and competitive pricing are necessarily exclusive.

And (as described above), if you have the two together, couldn’t that be a positive consequence – an incentive to maximize the sustainability of production?

Regenerating the Resource Commons

#15.

When resources are considered scarce, individuals race to exploit their desired share of resources before they miss out, degrading the resource base in the process. This process is called the ‘tragedy of open-access’, commonly mislabeled as the ‘tragedy of the commons’. The commons is in fact an ecologically viable alternative to the ‘market’ for collectively managing and allocating resources, as opposed to open-access where no management system applies.

Could it be simpler to build a process around a rule like, “if you want to extract a resource for commercial purposes (or proprietary ownership), you must pay for it?”

Planetary Boundary Avoidance

#16.

Love the reserve ratio and how it’s envisioned.

Via a distributed consensus mechanism, we collectively set targets and boundaries in any relevant economic sector. The system then automatically realigns incentives for the entire group to navigate towards or away from them.

In terms of distributed consensus, what happens when a lot of people are hungry?

How do hard decisions – like, deprivation of basic needs to protect low reserves vs. fulfilment of basic needs by exploiting low reserves – get made in this type of system?

Impact and Transition

#17.

Widespread adoption of a novel social coordination protocol which achieves the stated objectives would induce a systemic impact with enormous benefits for social and environmental wellbeing.

The feasibility of widespread adoption is a critical assumption.

Also, doesn’t the notion of “widespread adoption” seem to contrast with the idea of “a small change in DNA” described in the Proposition section?

A minor, well-crafted change in this DNA would yield immense transformation of the emergent social behaviour and impact of our species - reshaping our social relations, our economic output, and our collective impact on the planet.

#18.

There may be historical, non-technical examples of resource management and resource preservation across different cultures and citilizations

#19.

We foresee that with time, the prevailing political-economy will be assimilated into a new and improved paradigm with vastly different consequences.

“Assimilation” implies moving forward towards something new, less tested, less Lindy

“Via negativa” could be stepping back towards something that works just as well, something we had before, that has been tested (but perhaps forgotten)

#20.

Participants who engage in this new economy can trust in fair indirect reciprocity - that everyone else who participates will be bound by the same set of rules and be rewarded in the same manner for their contributions.

How can we trust that participants are bound?

Its also worth mentioning that a lot of this comes from my perspective of questioning “how could this idea/mission/project go wrong,” so I tend to look for that in new visions – potentially to a fault

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Hey Sam, thank you so much for your feedback!
Trust me, we could spend all our life thinking about how this could go wrong, and we won’t come to a conclusion. There is always going to be good and bad, and we should acknowledge this fact.

Our argument is that the economic game we have created and played for many years has not been designed with the wellbeing of people and the planet in mind.

The established economic system deprives people of fundamental needs so that others can have too much, it enslaves us into non-sensical jobs and pushes us against each other to plunder the planet in the name of profit, to the extent of waging wars for access to scarce resources.

What we are proposing is a different path to explore. Something that is at least “not wrong” in what we currently see wrong in the world.

A new way that comes with the internet age (the nervous system of the planet), which enables us to remove information asymmetry, account for resources, and incentivize planetary regeneration and wellbeing (according to each person’s definition).

We are not suggesting to replace the current system in one go, but to run an experimental borderless economy in parallel, and see where it fails before trying again.

Before addressing your questions, In the co-creation spirit we would like to establish, I would invite you to revisit your feedback and propose, based on your knowledge and experience, a workable solution anywhere you have spotted a potential pitfall.

Upon further reflection, here are few major ideas from me:

1.Instead of building an entirely new system from the ground up, it could be worthwhile to consider experimenting with singular interventions (e.g. individual components of THEOS) at the start. This could enable a more “scientific” process of observation, trial-and-error, and understanding effects of these components in given contexts. By implementing all of them at the same time, it would be more difficult to determine which components are responsible for which effects.

Furthermore, in terms of leverage and Pareto efficiency, perhaps one of those singular interventions (providing basic infrastructure for people, or resource-based pricing) could deliver a majority of the benefits we’re looking for.

2.What would the MVP of Theos look like? Before getting too far a long and spending too much time/resources building out a full-fledged system, it would make sense to validate it, stress-test it, and try to break it in a small setting

And on a more micro level, I believe there are some specific nuances worth exploring further:

For example, the tradeoffs between efficiency and individuality/uniqueness if every item is comprised of a specific group of ingredients. Is it desired and/or necessary for every loaf of bread to have the exact same molecular composition? Who decides that? Some variety/diversity of bread recipes seems beneficial and reasonable – how would we incorporate that?

For sure, this is a write up of the divergent meta vision stuff - alignment around north stars - but scoping is defiantly the way to go.

Agree, this page here is quite useful in that regard:
https://valueflo.ws/introduction/resources.html

Thank you Bryan and Roberto, it’s a noble direction and detailed plan of action.

Like Sam’s feedback, mine is drawn on various forms of knowledge. It’s not easy to sum things up and be “in dialogue” not debate. However, as I think it is important to advocate for the

and make sure we don’t impose our somewhat limited Western thinking on them.

So I would love to see if we could take the ideation beyond constraints of Formalist economic thinking (Formalism vs Substantivism Economics ).

TLDR: Formalist economics refers to the classic economic form of a supply-demand principle, which assumes economic agents make rational decisions to maximize personal gain. The scarcity mindset can be said to exist exclusively in formatlist economics.

Substantivist & Culturalist analysis accounts for the “oh so messy to put into protocol things” like kinship, political structure, religious ideologies (don’t think only “gods” think also being in stewardship to nature around you), moral norms, group benefits. Economics serves as a reciprocity and redistribution system.

Think it is extremely important to venture into an “uncomfortable” conversation of whether we are not constrained by our formalist thinking.

We need to go beyond semantics and into different “mindset” to regenerate the local socio-economic structures. Calling products needs won’t create new (or shall I say restore more harmonious) social systems.*** Technological advances have created to some extent “abundance” of resources, but a scarcity mindset. How do we change that around?

Could a resource graph focus on something more than formalist supply-demand & rational decision-making principles?

Could it focus on culturally unique values, group benefits, the “rational culturally relative?

Otherwise, how will it illustrate the difference between cutting down a tree and a sacred forest? How will it tell the difference between “ineffective” cultural practices of let’s say building using traditional methods that strengthen the community and the resource efficiency IKEA has achieved with its “designer furniture” available to all?

I would really love to explore those messy questions.

***Highly recommend exploring globalization vs social structures concept from examples like Helena Norberg-Hodge Ancient Futures (book and film of the same name)

2 Likes

Hey @Maija, really valuable thoughts here.

@liminal and I are currently discussing your response.

It seems that there could be “formalist” solutions to the sacred tree problem and others like it. To paraphrase an example from Roberto:

If Community A wants to designate a tree as sacred, that tree could be accounted as a resource allocated to them – and they choose what they want to do with it. That means if Community A needs a tree for firewood, they would have to request one more tree (two total trees allocated to Community A).

Meanwhile, if Community B has no sacred trees and needs for firewood, then it would request a single tree (one total tree allocated to Community B).

^ And that’s how the tension between resources and cultural artifacts could be accounted for.

Which does seem like a reasonable conclusion – however, that very conclusion is driven from a formalist, supply-and-demand perspective as well.

And to my understanding, it feels like you’re making a case for a different perspective at the foundation.

So we’re on the same page, would it be fair to describe your perspective as something like this?

  1. The function of “matching needs and offers” via a resource graph is a form of formalist supply-and-demand thinking
  2. This formalist perspective is a potential constraint
  3. We should to take a step back from the formalist perspective and re-evaluate at a more fundamental level

^ In essence, is that what you’re getting at?

From further conversation, things are distilling down to this:

Assuming that planetary boundary conditions exist and we have finite resources, is there an alternative (non-formalist) approach to sustainable civilizations and resource allocation?

If so, what are those different approaches?

(Admittedly, I haven’t read the Formalism, Substantivism and Culturalism document you linked yet, which may have some answers)

Also, is there any way we can challenge the assumption that “planetary boundary conditions exist and we have finite resources?”

^ For example, if there is a universe worth of energy inside every nucleus of every proton (hypothesis from A Connected Universe, iirc?), that could be a reasonable challenge to the underlying boundary conditions assumption

Yes Sam, that is a good summary of some of the questions that I believe should be at least thought about if not answered.

Let me ask another question, derived from your wording to sum up Robertos example

Aren’t resources “our cultural” artifacts? A poignant example of this is of course nature, in many cultures one cannot own any of it , it is sovereign.

Cultural baseline is that you wouldn’t take more than what you essentially need and treat what you get as "gifts and acts of goodwill ". Reciprocity & relationship is at the core.

Now imagine any relationship in your life where the dynamics are the same (family, stay at Liminal etc). How would that relationship look like in it’s current model & in one on the protocol? What kind of pressures it would create? How would it impact the people around you if they would not join the system? Wouldn’t the core value of "relationship " be lost in the transaction?

ps: excuses for any wonky spelling , sent from📱

that is the liminality & we need more of it :wink:

the full sentence is:

With this sentence, we wanted to indicate that people can choose which system to use just by installing an app. That, if found useful or working, can go quite fast, and it is a process doesn’t lean on the speed of political changes.
People can choose what app to install - that is, what economic protocol to use, make use of it any time they need something.

Ultimately, the proposed system is the best design we could think of as a starting point, but is just “a protocol”, thus “a way”. Anyone can design its own protocol economy, what we are advocating is that both planetary boundaries and wellbeing should be primary targets.

hey @liminal and all, have a look at this project I wound in a b4h.world application:

https://dorium.vision
This guys have been developing the concept for some time already, I could connect you with these people if you spot any interest

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Woah, great stuff!
How do we make it happen?

Its already being built in multiple parts but if you can point people that would like to make it happen here we can certainly do so. Bits are on Ethereum mostly at the moment but for the above to become a reality its Holochain (Ethereum being consensus based wont work, it has to be consent operation mode! #GameB ;))

Full alignment to the basic principles!
However, one question:
By just publishing each one’s needs, how to prioritize those needs? How to align needs, make them just? What if A says she needs a house and B says he needs an airplane (exaggerating on purpose).

How to decide on which needs to cut down if limits are reached? How to make sure that the aggregated needs are not over-exploiting the planet again in a new way?

I have been thinking on a similar idea from a different angle (but I think it’s essentially the same): a sensor-based, robotics-enabled and AI/machine learning - steered system which, sources, allocates and automatically distributes/supplies resources to where it’s needed…

But such a system would meet the same challenges, if people express needs/requirements on this system, and the system tries to fulfill them, then it will extract resources from where they are and ships them to where they are needed. How to balance the ecological stresses / challenges to such system?

2 Likes

We have been taught the workers must be the owners, but maybe that teaching is incorrect.

Instead of the baker owning the bakery, the miller owning the mill, and the farmer owning the farm,
imagine the people who actually need the bread own the bakery, mill and farm.

When the consumers of a product:

  1. Own the Means of that Production and
  2. Accept the product itself as the return on that investment,

there is no need to sell the product, for it is already owned by those who will consume it!

This special arrangement eliminates the usual need to buy/sell that product and so eliminates profit in a natural way leaving those special shareholders happy that they were able to avoid paying profit they would have otherwise paid if they had bought that product from the market.

This also prepares us for robots that will soon be able to plant and harvest :ear_of_rice:, transport, grind, mix and bake the :bread: with almost no human intervention.

Consumers can own farms and factories and wells and refineries for the insane reason that we simply need the results, instead of owning for the tired game of attempting to overcharge each other.

We, as consumers, already pay all the costs of production (and even more when we pay profit), so it is easy to see we can afford to be the owners once we realize the dream of worker ownership was an accidental or purposeful misdirection on our road to Free as in Freedom physical production!

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Welcome to the forum! :slight_smile:
Great questions, I myself am wondering what everyone thinks about
"What is just?" How should it be weight? If there are a multitude of weighers for an infinite number of communities, how can they be aligned?

Reimagining profit is a great direction, but I was wondering about the criticism towards worker ownership. Most companies are investor/market owned. Do you see it as coops (worker ownership) being a bad thing or were you referring to investor ownership structures? Because essentially textbook definition of coop/credit union structure is pretty much this:

^^ this being a very good structure when it comes to putting planet/community/human needs in the center of goods production.

What is your take on it from coop vs investor angle?

2 Likes

Are you suggesting coops already use property ownership in the Means of Production to preallocate those products, and are therefore prepared to face the automation apocalypse of abundance :robot::yum:

I am talking about an optimization that can be used to eliminate the usual late purchase of commodities.

The owner of a single :deciduous_tree: does not buy :apple: from himself, he owns them even before they are :cherry_blossom:

Even if he hires others to do the work, he still only pays the real costs of production, and profit is nowhere to be found. He does not fear abundance or automation and does not care about the market price of that product.

This is all very elementary and well understood for the single owner of a single tree.

The only thing I am observing is that we can use this same technique in groups to enjoy economy-of-scale and so create a realistic alternative to the usual token-passing fiasco which has caused us to believe that work is a need.

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We humans are the sensors, we know what we have and have not, we know what we need, but unfortunately we are often induced into thinking we also need something else.

Let’s say a significant chunk of humanity tells THEOS they will be happy with having more “shmukkels” around - whatever they are. Being a demand-driven economic system, THEOS makes no moralising or discriminating decision on what shmukkels are and if people would really need them, it just sets out incentives to make sure everyone requesting could get access to shmukkels as soon as possible.
As far as the algorithm knows and understands, shmukkels could equally be lame frivolous things or life-saving devices.
However, a key balancing aspect is that every step to make a shmukkel is traced into the resource ecology. THEOS knows exactly how much producing and shipping shmukkels will cost to the planet in terms of resources, and knows how many people need them.
It will mathematically ( not statistically) assign resources while making sure the total production costs will never cross the reserve rate for each of the component resources, while it will be prohibitively expensive as it approaches the reserve. It might be very possible that because people need more shmukkels, other products wil decide to switch to alternative designs which do not use the same key basic resource

People that wants to have access to the shmukkels will have to stake their resource allocation rights. If they get a smukkel and it is expensive (in terms of resource use), they might not be able to get anything else until they give the shmukkel to the next in line.

Maybe @poochy would like to add something?

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Came across this piece today, and it reminded me of our formalist/subsantivist conversation above @Maija @liminal

It has more concrete examples than I’ve seen before on this subject.

It also illustrates an important distinction in cultural perspectives – the worldview that “places belong to people,” compared to the worldview that “people belong to places”

P.S. Touches on totems at the end, Roberto!